IRL Men with Troy and Brian
===
Track 1: [00:00:00] (Opening words) Mental health is important to everyone, and this week's guests, Troy Pie Wakowski and Brian Thompson are the co-founders of I R L Men. It's a men's group where they, as licensed therapists, help bring a group of guys together to be vulnerable, to talk about feelings. To break through the scripts that we're taught from family and friends and society to show up as our authentic self.
So in this episode, what to listen for is what are those common points that will help you unravel the authentic you, right? it's really the same lessons for everyone, and even though this particular group and the work that they do caters to men in particular, but ultimately what
What I loved about this episode was hearing about their partnership [00:01:00] of going through this process individually, meeting during a process similar to the one that they teach in i r then, and then going and creating a company. So if you're an entrepreneur, it's. Or in a loving relationship with some other human , how do you navigate those tough and intense situations that arrive from living together or running a business together in this particular instance, or the idea that we need to push ourselves in order to grow?
And as a certified high performance coach, it's a message very near and dear to my heart because it can be challenging to share your feelings. It can be challenging to share what you're thinking, and it's that vulnerability of expressing your full self with the people that are important to you in your life that can determine a, a quality of [00:02:00] life.
For you, because if you feel constrained, if you feel like you're not accepted or you feel like you're being judged for being your authentic self, that will cause a lot of suffering.
there are social cues and family cues and, and expectations from others that can stifle that authentic self. So if you have a more authentic you in you and you would like to learn how to communicate it more, we have a couple of points to talk about that.
But that's the big theme of this episode, is how can you show up as your authentic self no matter who you are with that, let's get over to the interview with Brian and Troy.and enjoy
​
Shawn Buttner: Hey,
everyone. Welcome to the Meaningful Revolution podcast. I'm your host, Shawn Buttner. Today, I have the co [00:03:00]
of
IRL Men and IRL Therapy, Brian and Troy, and we'll be talking about a lot of mental health issues today. they're very open,
fun
guys to talk with. And so I'm really excited to be, having you guys on the show.
So welcome Brian and
Troy: Troy.
Thanks for having us.
brian: Yeah, thanks.
Shawn Buttner: course. my first question is, as the co founders of IRL Men, could you tell the audience a little bit of what is IRL Men? And maybe we'll get to the story of how it came to be created. But what is IRL Men?
Troy: Go ahead and start, Brian.
brian: Sure.
IRL Men is
a
partnership that
Troy and I
formed about
six years ago now, that is, very busy working, weekly with, [00:04:00] currently eight different groups of men. Our groups range in number, usually there's six to nine men in a group. But, and we meet for, 90 minutes a week. Some of those groups are considered support groups, which have more structure.
and most of those groups are process groups, which have less structure, are designed for longer term, runs.
And,
and,
what
am I missing, Troy? Anything you would add?
Troy: Yeah, just that they're, the process groups in particular are a,little bit of a living laboratory, for people to work through, relational patterns, relational issues, get to know how they're, how they impact people and how, And also like their own reactions and
get to know their own kind of emotional world through mirroring from the group. so it's a. It can be an incredibly potent,[00:05:00] space for people, especially as Brian said, those are, those tend to be a longer term, we say two to five years, is, the average that folks stick around in
Shawn Buttner: Wow. So, I guess, you know, it's called IRL Men or In Real Life Men. I'm assuming there, is it... predominantly men's groups, or is it only men in the groups, or?
Troy: Yeah, so we say, men and male affiliated,
people.
had trans men in the group. we've had, non binary, people in the group as well,but generally we're, again, like people who are, affiliated with the male experience, in some way,
is
the, is the,
standard,
brian: and since the pandemic, we're, we're online, and in person, and then actually we have a few groups that are a hybrid model where we meet online,[00:06:00]
then we also meet in person. So a little bit
of
little And we have for some of our groups, an annual retreat that lasts three
days.
Shawn Buttner: Okay.
Cool, cool.
the podcast is called The Meaningful Revolution, which is talking to people about what they nerd out about, just what you're passionate about. So I know that IRL men and
men affiliate groups are passions of both of yours. could you describe maybe how it came to be, how you got, how that partnership came together?
and then maybe your experiences with
similar
type groups.
maybe
we'll get to that next. But, so first off, how do you, I'm trying really hard not to do the compound questions. I tend to ask a bunch and then confuse
to
it back, how did this partnership come to happen?
brian: I could give
a bridged long version
the story. Which is, for me, when I was 21 years old, I was studying abroad in India, and I was in [00:07:00] Hampi, which is this beautiful place where the Jungle Book actually takes place. And, I was in
this
men's circle around a fire that, that had intergenerational
men.
and Realized
that night, I got something from that
evening experience
I'd never gotten in my life before around like intimacy, intergenerationally. I walked away from that feeling more connected to my grandfather as like a human being, not
just like an archetype.
even though my grandfather was not in that circle.
and then years later,
a colleague at a
karaoke bar turned to me and said, do you want to, you ever think about starting a
a men's
And I was like, yes. And, really
partnered with him seriously. And we started this, peer led men's group, which, a few weeks into that group, Troy walked in the door.
And
we met in a men's group circle.
and then many years later,
maybe five years after that or more,
we were both licensed
clinicians and,
we
the process [00:08:00] repeated itself.
But
of us, I think maybe I turned to Troy and said, do you want to start a
a men's And Troy said, yes, let's do that.
we started our first group
San Francisco. I think it was 2017. And
we
quickly realized we needed some more support in, in the complexities we were opening up in group that our previous format, felt limited. So we, went on the pursuit of some mentorship and, pulled in
some great mentors.
And,
and it expanded from there.
We realized this
is our favorite part of our week
is
sharing in these groups together. And so we went from one group to four groups pretty quickly
and then it slowly built up from there.
Troy: Yeah, and I'll say,
just, to add a little bit, my... My experience, early on in that group with Brian, is interesting. we've talked about this after the fact that,we weren't initially drawn to each other,
so much and, but then,
was we had an [00:09:00] outing actually that.
we
on with some of the men from that group, and we had, we were playing a board game, Brian and I were, we're part of it and some of the guys and,we ended up like having a, having an argument over like how he,
I didn't like the way
he was playing like fast and loose and, in a different style, like I'm a little bit more by the book and about fairness and, And we ended up getting into a squabble about, about that and there was a recognition of like brotherhood.
in
being able to fight with each other and, and I think that's been like part of the glue. I think that's made us
a good
partnership over time is that we're, we really enjoy each other. We're,
We're,
think
quite symbiotic in a lot of ways, but we're also quite different.
And,we can also get into difference with each other. we can get angry with each other. we can fight and,and come through on the other side, deeper and stronger. So I think that's,
to me, that's [00:10:00] a big
part of our
origin story as,
as co leaders of co founders of this,
brian: And just to be clear, in case it wasn't, Troy's referencing the original men's group that we met in, not the ones that we were running
together
Troy: Yeah.
Gotcha.
thanks
Shawn Buttner: for clearing that up. so I imagine... having started a business myself, it's really stressful and hard in that way. A lot of partnerships in general and business, especially small businesses fail because partners can't get along. do you guys,
maybe
were jumping too deep, let me know, but have you guys had to navigate some of those kind of tougher periods as entrepreneurs?
Cause I imagine this work is actually the best way to maybe work through some of those relationship issues. But so it could be a good example, a good teaching point for the audience. But
could you
talk about maybe your entrepreneurship, newership
journey
together with this group a little bit, and [00:11:00] maybe how some of the skills you've picked up in your career and, the work that you do have helped you find a way through to, to make sure that it doesn't tear the organization apart?
brian: Yeah.
it would be interesting. We could actually weave one of the.
Models that
we use in our groups into our own
individual journey, which is,
that we
view the group development that happens in phases. So first phase one is are we a
group?
and then once everyone's
determined yeah, I think I can get my needs met here and there's someone in the circle that I could relate to and I'm in, a group will quickly, unconsciously, but
inevitably move into a different phase, which is,
is there space for
to be different from the group?
So is
there, is, difference
okay here? And what we observe in culture at large is that's usually where, [00:12:00] relationship ends. we see that in our political system.
It's like
Republicans and Democrats have their differences, and so
then
start to scapegoat each other.
is
the common response on a...
On a
level. And then you see that in the family too, with estrangements and ruptures that can't get repaired. And, what we do in group is we help people take ownership over, what they're feeling with the difference in the room. So we don't try to fix the differences in the room, but we ask people to really own,what would you have to feel if it was okay
for,
I'll use the political
for the Trump voters to be members of this group or the Biden voters or the non voters or whatever, there's all these differences here.
Like what would you have to feel if actually you weren't going to change them and we're still a family, we're still a
group
here.
and that, that usually gives rise to something
therapeutic, something
vulnerable,
something deepening and something that everyone can relate [00:13:00] to. Which moves us into, the next phases of
group, we could talk about,
more detail, but those are, that's the crucial moment.
It's can we have rupture and repair? Can we make more space for difference rather than needing to squash it out? And I think that, Troy and I have had a
similar
journey of initially just being like, wow, we're running these groups together. This is so great.
What could go wrong? about,
what we're, what
we've been creating and what we've been manifesting,
but along the way,
having to over and over again,
revisit our
differences,
and as we do and wrestle over those or survive.
Survive our fights or yeah, work our way through it. There's a deepening intimacy a deepening
safety
each go round
Yeah, true. Do you want to say anything?
Troy: yeah, it's almost like we have to re go through that phase again and again.[00:14:00] yeah, and then each one is a deeper cut, but a lot of it is
we have a mentor that talks about that therapy is like the spiral staircase. That you circle a lot of the same issues more or less, like
the
motifs over and over again.
But each time you're in a descent, a slow descending
process. And
I think that's been the case for us.
But I was thinking,
I don't know if maybe a specific example would be interesting to
get into. and
the big one that comes to my mind, was, And I don't know if it was our first one necessarily, but it was definitely a big one, was around,
around the pandemic, and.
Brian moving to Grass Valley,
which is about, two and a half hour drive from the Bay Area. we were a hundred percent in person, groups, prior to the pandemic. We had to go a hundred percent online during the
pandemic
and that kind of freed Brian up to explore and while he was doing telehealth and while we were all having to do [00:15:00] telehealth, getting to
explore.
other places and working from other places and then falling in love with grass valley and, deciding to stay there, even after,
after we were able to come back, I think it was a big, it was a big crisis for us for a time, that we really had to go through a lot of rounds
of pretty vulnerable,
I think it's started off as more as a lot of those conversations do, it started off more heated, more angry, more,
probably more judgmental, at least on my part about, about that decision.
and it definitely, I'll speak for myself, picked up a lot of my own attachment wounding around,
trying to get people to, to stay,
stick around.
And
yeah, and then eventually it we dropped into the more, more vulnerable parts of it, and it helped a lot.
We have,having, a mentor, a consultant, helping us
those, navigate those conversations. we would spend, as much [00:16:00] time sometimes in our consultation, doing couples therapy,
so to speak,with our co partnership,
as
talking about our groups, which would normally be what we would be focusing
Yeah.
Anything you had to add to that, Brian?
brian: Yeah, I'm also aware of like in our groups
There's these meta arcs
we say people stay two to five years But sometimes people stay for more than five years and we have a group eight that, the membership's been really steady and the guys are starting to talk about
Hey, like, why would we, we don't have to ever stop doing
this.
We could be, this could be a lifelong thing, which is really beautiful. And in, in those kinds of groups
where it's,
where people stick around for a long time, we find compounding
rewards,
and
there's a way in which we weave closer to each other. There's meta arc of conversations. And I've been appreciating
[00:17:00] at
time of the pandemic, I felt really freed up by the online work, Troy felt really constricted by
it,
and that created a crisis because we wanted different things.
Here we are a few years later, I'm fantasizing about coming back to the Bay and
getting more back in the office. And Troy just
a house, which is inconveniently a little far from his office,
and
he's shifted, for the time being, to more online
work, and
that feels like
classic,
we're taking our stance,
getting into it, and then we're finding where we can land, which we found a nice happy medium, I think,from that difference with our retreat model was born, okay, we'll
spend more time online,
then we'll have three days a year,
Just full on
with the guys, which has been a real net positive, I think,
overall. And now, yeah, years later, we're, finding ourselves crisscrossing and Oh, I can more deeply empathize with
Troy's
of I need to be in the office more. And
Troy's [00:18:00] can more
feel like, oh yeah, it's nice to be a little free. And untethered
from the commute.
and those same things happen with really tough
conversations.
I can think of some really,
it's not always like
some new members that have
in and had some allegations,
thrown their way from women in their lives, for example, and then there's like a big trust issue in the group, even though it's a men's
group, it's
I believe the man, or do I believe the woman who, of course you never meet the
woman, but.
that's a heavy conversation
one that culture is trying to deal with, American culture, and I think globally Who, who's to, who's side to take in these he said, she said situations it caused a lot of It's not a conversation you're going to have and complete in an hour
and a half.
it was a three year
conversation we really got
see it evolve and I think everybody grew a lot from it, including me.
being
privileged to hold space for that conversation and watch it grow and evolve.[00:19:00]
Troy: Yeah, what you're reminding me of, Brian
is the,
the, idea that,
everything that's human
is in us, is in all of us and that we tend to, what we notice and I think this has been really, fruitful and like being in, in partnership with you
and as you said, doing those crisscrosses and finding Finding ourselves on the other ends of the
polarity.
polarity really speaks to that. both of us, have a need to be free and untethered. And both of us have a need for like kind of security. and constancy, and closeness.
And I
that's true with our groups as well, that we see that.
I think that's the value that you get to see, like people speaking to,
things
you would never, I would never say, or endorse about myself. And suddenly I'm resonating with this, in some way, it's it's striking a chord.
It's, it's vibrating the string in
the freedom string
that maybe I
normally pluck too much on my own.[00:20:00]
So I
I
that's definitely something I feel, Feel a lot of like passion about and
get really excited about,
when that happens.
brian: And I'll say one more thing to circle back to
what I think the heart of what you're originally asking, Shawn,
was
how do we deal with our partnership? I think we're saying in a lot of ways, but to answer more directly, I
I think it really helps that we're. We have
good sense of humor. We shared humor.
it really helps that we're both reasonable. I think. And what I mean by that also is
we're therapists that are really committed to doing our shadow work to really seeing like, all right, what's my part in
and I. And we, and then we have a community around us. We
in, mentors
who,
lucky for us are also therapists.
So they can hold us as a couple and get us, help us navigate through our work. Often in couples work, the saying
can be that
couples come to couples therapy seven years too late. And I think that's true with, partners [00:21:00] is in business.
It's like
never go to They don't even think about it.
And I would
this to all the entrepreneurs who are listening. If you're in partnership,
I already know that whether you know it
not. And
you probably already know that
because
you're in partnership. find a mentor that can help you, a third
party that can deepen with your partner.
It can be alchemical, transformative. Work so I we're both married
and
I always say to people I have two marriages one to
my partner, Joanna,
and The other's to Troy
and they're both
a
in the ass and I wouldn't trade them for anything in the world really a pleasure and forces
me to look at myself more honestly.
Shawn Buttner: as,this brings up
exciting
question,
think.
So as a high performance coach,
constantly
trying to connect people's work lives and
lives
together, and this is a great, I think, segue [00:22:00] into personal belief that I have. as, a
Married guy also that the any work that you can put into relationship building and relationship Skills,
guess
is maybe a way to phrase it will help you in all areas of life if you
like my wife and I have a couple of therapists that we go in for maintenance and it's more of A preventative, it's like going to the doctor before you get sick, it's hey, how are the vitals like?
What's going on? What are you seeing because you're in it and everyone like when you're both in it It's really the
really see the
issues or blind spots, but that perspective is super valuable. I found in dealing with, yeah.
Be working on teams, right? it's another kind of family environment where a lot of times, unless you want to leave, you're stuck and how you show up and those skills that you can bring from your personal [00:23:00] life translated into that way.
could you, I guess at a personal level,
each
of you share one or two things that maybe you've learned about relationships in general, either from the men's groups or your personal relationships? That could really, help people, if there was one thing that you just
could
think to yourself If I only would have known this when I was like 25 What would be that one thing that that really resonated with you now that you wish you would have
known?
Troy: I'm not sure if it's something I could have gropped at 25, but I will say that,
yeah, it's a learning of that I think has been as much personal,as in the groups. That, just that life is really hard and that,that people come by their defenses, their ways of protecting themselves, their resistances to growth,
honestly,
and,that the thing that [00:24:00] usually helps, I think more often than confrontation or pushing or, holding people's feet to the fire is,
is compassion,
is a warm, loving embrace of saying, I see you and I see your, I see you and your struggle.
I see how hard this is for you. And,I think I really needed a lot of that. and,just didn't have
that
maybe modeled
me so much. And so I didn't have a lot of it in myself to give myself either.
And,I
feel as I, the more that I, with every year that I practice as a therapist, I think I'm bringing more heart and more compassion, more understanding and empathy for,
people's resistances ways of, yeah.
Even
the patterns
that
very distancing or hard to get, hard to deal with.[00:25:00]
brian: Yeah,
I've really seen that in in you recently Troy that's been a Point of leadership in our partnership
the groups we lead, Troy has been,
yeah.
really leading the way. that's often another nice thing about
working with Troy,
is the boomerang effect we can have on each other. One person might be
one step closer to the
the wise heart of things than the other.
we
share leadership of who's driving the boat.
Shawn Buttner: how
about you Brian is there? One thing about relationships that you could maybe share with folks that you've learned from the groups or personally?
brian: Yeah, I mean for
I think about I've been working with the theme of, not enoughness, and, I tend to, wager on the side of too [00:26:00] muchness. I'm
I'm the,
the more is better
guy.
and I didn't realize when I was younger,
the ways in which,
I was,
running from something.
that there wasn't, in there, there isn't an inherent truth to more is better.
It's I was really trying to avoid having to face, limits.
Avoid having to face, what I have to feel when I,
which is vulnerable
I have to reckon with, Oh, I have limits here. I can't do it all. can't just always be pushing more,
which is a
lesson.
I think we all have to learn as
we age. but. There is, there's a
psychological piece around what I could, was embracing and can feel really good and
I like that I'm ambitious. I'm like that I'm,
high energy and passionate
and
can build things and,
and get things done in the [00:27:00] world.
and there's like, a softness or
slowing down
that I can
do and notice like, Oh, I also have some more vulnerable which helps me relate.
To all of humanity,
That's true. I was saying, like all of
humanity is in us. And when I was younger, I had a,
my impulse
to scapegoat.
essentially Oh, there
I take the not enoughness that I didn't want to feel on myself.
that
see it in the world
and say, Oh, my partner's not enough,
versus
doing the harder work, which is like, Oh,
what,
which is what we do in group.
What do I have to feel if my partner is enough
or
her limits and her accepting of her own
limits are, are
okay. It's Oh, that now I'm in, now I'm in my
work.
And
If I do that work,
I, it leads
me to more whole places.
Shawn Buttner: That's, those are [00:28:00] both
really powerful realizations and I want to honor and just, call that out, because that's, and of course I'm trying to trying not to Now reflect on it. I'll take notes and think about it more going ahead. But yeah, definitely, yeah, I believe in compassion and,
compassion and like The
parts where I've been able to be really successful in my work as a software engineer has been showing compassion to people, not, especially people that don't understand technology and just, when doors opened or people were friendly with me when I needed something from a project, it was because of
that
compassion component and, always, more isn't always better.
I
think I, yeah. Maybe we all struggle that to some degree. so I see that in myself too. So I just wanted to share that. yeah, so thanks for sharing that. That's awesome.
brian: asking.
Shawn Buttner: [00:29:00] yeah, and I think it proves like that, that,
the question
of if, how would I have to feel if my partner was okay with who they were and
if
they felt they had enough?
I'm paraphrasing here. I felt the power and the shift of that question too, just in,
how deep
it goes, like that is not something you're going to be like, here's my five minute explanation. that's a lifelong pursuit.
Troy: So yeah,
yeah,
It's a path that more than a, than an answer
Yeah.
Shawn Buttner: yes, a journey. Yeah. a question that I'm thinking about right now is part of
any
community or any human relationship, I believe, at the very center is love, and if we're gonna, you guys are so vulnerable and
Sharative. Sharative.
That's a word. Here.
Yeah,
for me, growing up, the lesson I would have is that it's okay to be angry [00:30:00] and actually release it before it accumulates.
That's something I've struggled with myself
in
that anger isn't necessarily bad, it's something you, but it's trying to tell you something and to be like, hey, this really made me upset before it turns into a big, Head explosion is, something that's very, important. But, and I
say
that point
to
say that in groups and relationships, I think love is the central binding glue to anything.
and like love in the like ancient Greek sense of like fraternal love. Like, I can love my friends. I can love acquaintances or people in my community, even if I don't agree with them,
curious, how
does, especially for men's groups where I guess if you go from like a stereotypical thing,it's not showing love is maybe providing or it's very restrictive,
how have you [00:31:00] guys seen that topic kind of show up in your groups or communities,
as you guys have gone along?
brian: I have a fun answer to that
and actually it's
on two sides of the spectrum. I mentioned earlier,
I'm speaking directly to
the groups we work with
Shawn Buttner: on the one hand. We have the group
brian: that
I mentioned earlier. That's pretty been is
our most stable and group membership.
no one's left
a long time.
And so the
membership's really stable. So the group
able to deepen
deepen without interruption.
And,
one
the guys in that group has recently raised that question, like, When are we going to say we love each other?
Like, when,
it's on the verge of that.
Which, I was mentioning the phases
group earlier.
That's more of a,
phase, what is that, Troy?
Is that phase four.
Yeah.
So it's
and then that also, phase four [00:32:00] leads to phase five, which is like the morning after. It's oh,
I said, I love you. No, done the deed. It's
back to that, what Troy was describing is that need for, safety or,
face it. Yeah. I'm facing the,
Troy: now that we've got, now that we've gotten intimate with each other,
that also
means by definition, we're going to get to know all of each other's limitations and peccadillas and all this stuff that irritants.
and so reckoning with that, in a deeper way. Yeah. I want to, were you done, Brian?
Did you want to say
brian: I'll just say, the other side of this is,
I have a group that
is
the point
kind of teasing themselves because
early on they were, really quick to say, I love you.
So that's the other thing is I love you as a,
as a way of managing anxiety
about,
uncertainty, as a way of trying to avoid phase
two. So we're a group. This is great.
feels really good. [00:33:00] And I wanted to stay feeling good. So I love you Like what there's no there's nothing that we really have to deal with here. That wouldn't be loving or good or positive And so it's a fleeing
from
Something I'm just
noticing two sides
of
of it,
that it can show up early too as a As actually a mask of masking the anxiety of
difference.
That's not actually the usual
that happens, but it can. Because if one person starts it, it's like now it's in the group and then somebody else says, I love you too. And they're like, there's almost a peer pressure to now be the loving group.
And inevitably there's group leaders that we refer to as the defiant leaders that,then help the group slow down.
I don't want to have to come by out
with you all. And so they hold the role in the group of,
we all get to change at our own pace
and time or get closer at our own pace But yeah, I'll pass it over to you, Troy.
Troy: Yeah.
something that,[00:34:00]
comes to mind about working with men, specifically, and, I would say. not everybody in our, groups, identifies as straight,
but,
but many
do
and,
and
I think even for folks who are, gay or identify as queer,
or bisexual, that everybody, I think all men who have grown up in this society have to reckon at some point with, the homophobia, that, that comes up around male closeness, and that there's, we're men are so
entrained,
to, not
I love you, to not...
share
when they feel close
to another man, for fear that it's going to come off as gay, as a, or as a,
a, as an erotic
a
a romantic,
gesture of some kind.
And
what we notice, we've referred to as, bro code,
that
a lot of bro, there's a lot of bro code that, that comes up in, in these groups where, that we have to help, we have to help them unpack.[00:35:00]
a lot of That
of societal, stuff around, essentially, what's homophobia and it doesn't always, show up obviously as homophobia. sometimes it'll just be, somebody, using the word weird, there's something weird about saying, I feel so close to you. okay, let's unpack that.
What
What do you mean by weird?
And inevitably what we get down to at some point under underlying weird is. some kind of, fear around,
coming off as gay.
or,the other, side of that's very closely related is feminine. Coming off as feminine,
again, like culturally.
We're trained to equate, when men are,
holding femininity as weak.
And so there's a lot, yeah, so there's a lot of that culture training that
we have to unpack.
brian: I
to say one more thing about this, which is one of the. Beautiful things about a group is that,
they all have their
different [00:36:00] identities.
So it's
I think, when talking about this to,
to imagine that
it's
oh, okay, that shows up in group
and that's what the group is.
It's
like there's a bro code group, but actually there's always, these other subgroups we work with the different subgroups in the group.
So some subgroup is actually kinda holding the bro code. and then there's usually, it's like intelligent.
systems,
like
it.
One,
or two or three or even four guys or more, depending on the group. This, the, this bro code group could be a smaller subgroup than the
majority of the group.
but in many
our groups, it is the majority of the group kind of are used to bro code culture.
And
What I'm trying to say is that
it's,
there's all these different subgroups that kind of
balance each other out. So there's usually one or two that can
speak for it. Who on that boomerang effect I was talking about earlier, who are like, maybe a step closer to the wiser heart of things, or seeing something a little bit more clearly with a little
bit wisdom.
And we
[00:37:00] to help them give voice.
It's
if we're doing our job well over time,
the group's doing our job
for us
a certain
Shawn Buttner: I guess to be clear, when you say bro code, it's like rules about expressing feelings and closeness
intimacy,
or is it like a secret way to say I love you in a way that's, I just want to make that clear is I wasn't clear on that,
Troy: Yeah,
I think it's these kind of unspoken rules around
you don't,
yeah, you don't talk about your feelings. definitely don't talk about your feelings with other men. you don't let somebody know that you care about them.
or that
you feel close to them, or that you love them. If you do, you've got to put, you've got to put bro, or man, or brother, something at the end of it to soften it,
to soften it,[00:38:00]
make it clear that it's, that it's not a romantic gesture.
So there's just like
a lot of
little things that just show up
consistently and we find them, we find them in the organic exchange.
Shawn Buttner: right? on, Okay. Thanks for clearing that up.
one, so I was doing a little bit of research and one of the statistics I found about friendship, and I was trying to find a connection to friendship and mental health and particularly to men,
the, probably the biggest
statistic I
found was that instead of 20 years ago, it was like,
what
was
it?
I know what the statistic is now is that one out of six, male
identified in
whatever the statistics are,whatever that is, don't have someone that's close to them where they feel like they can talk, or on the contrary, I think it's also that they think that they're the best person that they know, which I [00:39:00] found to be sad.
So I was wondering, in these groups, I'm sure you talk about friendships, part of being intimate is being able to say, Hey, I respect you. I love you. and my belief, and it may be that, we could go into that at another time, maybe, but, how does friendship and community come up in your work?
I'm just curious.
brian: different groups have different models.
At this point we run a lot of different groups,
why don't I just talk
about
the groups that
go on the retreat. Maybe I'll start
that, because that feels like
the best example.
is, we
have
of our groups that go on an annual retreat together, so
there's the four pods that meet
weekly together, as individual groups of about eight guys.
And then once a year we bring them all together, so it's about 30 men.
and,
we're camping out and
food served, [00:40:00]
it's a whole different program than our
weekly 90 minute
ritual that we do, which really diversifies the year and brings... Men
into a much deeper, longer contact with And
we started doing that,
we've said,
we've handed over the reins to the guys to choose how they want to be in relationship with each other. prior to that, we ran these groups originally as a traditional. psychotherapeutic process groups, which traditionally, said that the group doesn't have outside contact.
So
would come for these 90 minutes and we'd be doing deep work of trying to help make the unconscious processes more conscious.
but over time,
And actually pretty quickly we realized there's something that doesn't quite feel right about this in the context of,
modern day
crises around men
in isolation.
They're getting something
our group
so they don't get
else in their life. And there was a craving for more contact and,
to [00:41:00] bring
the friendships outside of the group. so community shows up in a huge way in our annual retreat. There's...
song, there's dance, there's,
tug of war, there's competition, there's play, there's a
of deep circling, which, over, over the course of a few days, people's defenses get worn down and they can have Bigger breakthroughs that they, then they would have even in a year in our group.
Sometimes it's like in that weekend,
we
there's tears,
the whole gamut
of human experience.
and that's super enriching for the men
and
I think really supports their relationships throughout the year. And with that said, everybody gets to choose like how close or distant they want to be.
it's okay to just come to the retreats and okay to just come to group, weekly and not, hang out outside a group. But
yeah, I'll stop there
just give Troy some
Troy: Yeah, I, and I think the,[00:42:00] opening the. Opening the groups up to, the possibility of outside contact has also really illuminated, I think, the ways that, you know, that it's like you bring yourself everywhere, right? And not only now are they bringing, showing up
a
as their relational self inside of group, they're also showing up in there as a relational selves outside of
of group with each other.
so folks who are
maybe,
struggle with.
social, anxiety, for example,when they shut down, when somebody reaches out over text, they get confronted about it in group
nicely, and
a chance, there's actually an
opportunity that's opportunity that's unique.
to,
to being in group where, I think probably nine times out of 10, socially speaking, unless you have a pretty like forward, confrontational friend, who's willing to like, let you know that how that impacted them, you're not going to get that feedback. and I think it's really, it's been, I've seen that as being.[00:43:00]
really important and almost like we're creating like a,
almost like a,
a new vision for what authentic
could look
like,
if people were
transparent with each other, people communicated more. openly about, about their feelings and about, how, yeah, impacts. and, and I think that again, that, that comes back to Brian and I's relationship where you and I have figured out how to do that, how to form a friendship with each other that's like that.
And I think that makes it possible. It's the foundation for these guys to then. Be able to build that kind of a community with each other. and it takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of time. This kind of genuine community, it takes a long time because,
people have different hangups,
they
different, very different kinds of experiences of.
of community, of family, of individual friendship, and not [00:44:00] all of them are, are great. And so we're working through, those ones that aren't so great. Live as it's unfolding as we're trying to get closer What happens when we try to be more authentic with each other?
brian: Yeah, that makes me realize
I want to highlight
one of the elements of
our groups that we both
love, It's really real. I think sometimes
think of like men's groups or therapy groups as just like a,
Kumbaya Kind of a place or
just empathetic relating, which I think for a lot of men out there, they're like, No, I'm wanting something more.
I'm wanting some more contact. I don't want to go pay and just be nice to each other, which there's nothing wrong with that. But there's something that,
there's a fire
our groups where not, we're really, we're not messing around. We're really seeing each other.
You
can't hide.
And, you're allowed to say I'm not up for it today. I'm feeling sick,
so I'm going to be quiet.
No problem. come as you are. But the [00:45:00] fact that you can't really hide makes it, really transformative. And so the issues you're having at work,
the
you're having with your wife,
those will show up in group, Guarantee it.
I actually was slightly skeptical about this when I was in training. I was like, really though? Would
it really show up
a group like the, and cross the board 100 percent
of the time. we carry
ourselves wherever we go in our hangups. are included in that.
not a fight club.
It's not like
a
pull it
of you either. It's just a we're seeing you. This is real. And that's really confrontative, which brings up the bro code piece that is sometimes needs to be unpacked, which is the part of the bro code is don't, we don't look at that together. we ignore these things together.
We siphon them off.
And so that
get in the way of us actually being, mature men who actually see, have vision. It's I'm not allowed to see that, or I'm not supposed to see that, so we're gonna pretend like it's [00:46:00] not here.
That phenomenon is really strong.
Troy: I'm not supposed to feel jealous
of,
of Two other guys friendship with each other
brian: let alone acknowledge
Troy: out loud
Shawn Buttner: as I was listening, the word that I kept
held on to
is it's, the work is challenging, right? It's a challenge to take a look at those things that bro code says we can't, or, we're conditioned not to in order to be a masculine energy out in the world.
I
just want to commend you guys for that work of helping build a community where that challenge is encouraged and accepted.
cause I think that's, we all need that in our lives. universally, cause that's how you grow. It's not from doing the easy things, it's from confronting the things as they are and then being like, Okay, [00:47:00] it's my responsibility to go now what.
And I'm
sure that's why a lot of people end up. Going to a group like this is to step up and grow.
So
just wanted
to acknowledge that.
one more question I wanted to get to before we start wrapping it up is you did mention a couple of times in the conversation. I was trying to find a way to work it up into the conversation, but maybe, it's not a men's group. It's like a masculine energy group.
to be more inclusive to non binary or, people in the gay community or whatnot. my question is how,
it's
like, how tricky is it to navigate that in today's social environment? because it could be... There could be a lot of, you say the wrong thing, in society you could get whacked from
[00:48:00] multiple
angles, conservative, more progressive, there, there's not a really, we don't have a good common language socially to talk about the stuff which can make it really confusing.
how have you guys navigated that in your work?
brian: Yeah, first of all, I'd say I wouldn't say that we're necessarily even a masculine energy group I think we're what to be inclusive. we're a people's group and
we're
taking the
segment of people Who identify as men or are affiliated
the male experience and saying if you're interested come join us We're gonna do some work.
That's in that subgroup of
people
And so
I actually, the way I loosen it up for myself is to not to put too much pressure on it. There's a lot of social stigma
and,
pressure to get it right,
and I think that's, that can be scary. And so
I
maybe I'm [00:49:00] bypassing something, but it's good for my nervous system to say
yeah,
we're putting the call out.
If you're interested, come join us because there's something important and primal and traditional about, circling up as men and,
that's,
I'll pause there.
I'm sure Troy has some
to share.
Troy: Yeah. Yeah. I'm thinking about our last retreat and,we, so we also, as facilitators, we bring in, some outside facilitators who bring in other perspectives and,and our kind of work from different models than us and, and some of the, one, one of the guys in particular that we brought in as a facilitator, was bringing in some language, at the retreat around, the,that, that is more definitively, referring to everybody as.
As
men,
men and, and men's work. And, and it kicked up a lot actually for the group. and there were like a sub, there was a
a of people who, some of them,
were maybe identified [00:50:00] as non-binary or,
maybe just felt less.
Less polarized as in the category of man,
identified strongly with that and, and then some other folks who were just more, empathizing, I think, with that perspective. I think it's,we're open to. To the conversation that comes from that and that there's, we're inevitably working with polarities of all kinds because we live in a very polarized society.
So it's like we, we, the short answer is that we welcome it all in. We're actually like interested in having those conversations and not just around sexuality or,gender, but also around race
and,
around money and,
class privilege, all those kinds of things. nothing's off the table,
brian: Yeah, I'll say,
yeah, we, we've had really interesting conversations around men's groups. Some people being like,
I put this
on my dating profile and when I go on dates and I say, I'm on a,
I'm
a men's group, I feel like it's [00:51:00] rapport building. Like women tend to say thank you, or,
I really like it.
And then others who are like, I'm, I
hide that
group. I feel really uncomfortable with
being in a men's group.
But, but inevitably they're showing up and getting value from the group and their relationship with
the group itself might be
a totally different thing from their relationship with the word men's group.
and then there's this other thing we've been wrestling with, which is There's,this idea of men's work,
which,
I'm recognizing, I have a of a hang
with this idea of men's
work.
On the one hand, it's great, but I don't identify as necessarily, a men's work guy.
I think cause it's, it sounds, I think because it feels overly
prescriptive,
a specific work that we need to do. and again, I,we're in, we're doing human work
where we're making space for what is, can we put language to what is most authentic in the room, whether
that's,
good, bad, ugly, indifferent, [00:52:00] dissociated, bro coding,
I love you, I don't
want to hear that word in this room, whatever it is.
We're like, Oh, wow, can we welcome that in too? So the full gamut, feminine,
masculine, don't
either of those polarities, feel limited by them, feel contained by them, locate myself on the spectrum or not. so that feels more freeing to me
that we're, a group that
just be human
together.
Shawn Buttner: Thanks for explaining that, just because, yeah.
yeah, we're all limited
by the
English
language a lot of the times in that particular conversation and so it's always, I'm always just curious
to
Hear what other okay.
Final
question and then we'll get to how to follow up with y'all. if there
was
one thing that you've picked up [00:53:00] through this human group work,
what, if you could put it on like
bumper
sticker or plaster it on a, billboard.
Like one message from the work that you've done up to this point that you think would help all of humanity, will make it super big. what would you put on that bumper sticker or billboard?
Troy: I would say,
risk
being
deeply who you are,
Shawn Buttner: What do you mean by that?
Troy: that would be my, that would be my message would be that
take the risk to be, deeply who you are
and, and
I think the subtext is that we're ever deepening, were never finished product. so that's, that,
that's what
kind of keeps me engaged is the deepening
[00:54:00] and
the, risking
over time.
brian: And mine,
mine might
like a two parter. I've always been drawn to this,
statement, the truth
set you free,
It
it helps
me feel courageous and in the eyes of
of, intensity
of a group experience of being exposed.
but then I've also been working with this, the thought of, the truth as,
as a collective experience, actually, not as a one thing, like
the
will set you free.
Sounds like there's one truth. And
so maybe the truth
set you free and
the truth is most.
don't know. I don't know the next part, but I'm working on it.
Like,
perhaps the truth is most
true as a collective.
The
truth is more true
through
the eyes of the collective.
Troy: Yeah. It's
like the truth is multivariate,
Yeah.
Multifaceted.
Yeah. that's a thing we, we talk [00:55:00] about,
in, in group is there's no master narrative.
We've got a
lot of room for a lot of different stories about what's
happening
brian: And there's a lot of important truth in the room.
yeah, it's really powerful
when somebody's
seeing something about themselves, and it's obvious to five of the guys in the and they're feeling aggravated. And on a one on one basis,
can tell
your friend, Hey, I'm noticing
do this thing, and they're like,no, you're misunderstanding,
It's much harder to do no, in the eyes of five guys who see you weakly, know you deeply, and five of them are saying the same thing. It's okay, maybe I should
take this medicine. Maybe there's a truth here
that will actually set me free.
Shawn Buttner: I'm
I'm not sure if you guys are familiar with Ted Lasso, TV show on Apple Plus. I have a quote that, I, the truth will set you free, but first it'll piss you off is maybe another part of [00:56:00] it But it's something I definitely think is true, too
Troy: absolutely.
Shawn Buttner: that
brian: Yeah, I've had,
personally, I've had experiences leaving
group pissed,
as a
Troy
I are both in a group process
together.
practice what we
practice. so we're
participants who have a similar experience. Yeah,
a couple
mentors who hold space for us in a
a group process. And the
most valuable ones is when I leave super pissed at the group.
it's not that common,
when it happens I'm usually confused, feeling misunderstood, and there's some truth that's
trying to get through the group to me, and I'm
Troy was saying, I wouldn't be able to grok it when I was 25. It's something I'm not quite, I'm on, I'm not quite ready to grok and so I need to get pissed about it, talk to other people about
it, and
it's a, but it's a fast tracking.
Like I think you probably were ready when you were 25, Troy, if.
You had the right group around you telling you it over and over and you
Fighting with it until you surrendered
at age [00:57:00] 26.
You're
like,
I
what they're saying
Troy: My
ego suit
was too strong. It would only fortify that further.
brian: Fair enough. Yeah, which speaks to the importance of having professionals in the room, too We can work with the places that it's too much. There's too much pressure coming in There might be too much truth we can
help,
make
sure the space is productive,
and like
I
earlier, we're not a fight club.
We can fight,
we have to fight, but we're not fighting for the sake of fighting, that's
not the point.
Shawn Buttner: gentlemen, it's been a fantastic conversation. I'd love, we'll put this in the show notes, but where can the good folks follow up with y'all if you, if they were interested in learning more about IRL men or IRL
therapy?
Maybe you could talk about the difference real quick too about that.
Troy: Yeah,so our website for [00:58:00] the men's groups is, IRLmen. com.
And,
that if you're interested specifically in joining a men's group, either a support group or a process group. that would be a place to reach out, and we have a, contact form on the homepage there. And then, more of a recent addition, is,IRLtherapy.
com, and that's,we have, a couple of other, practitioners that we're partner with, And that's a therapy center. so we offer individual, couples
therapy, as well as
therapy
brian: And we can offer family
therapy, although I don't
anybody's currently working with any families. But we're available for it.
And that's in real life. IRL in real life for
who are unfamiliar with that one, which we've before used to mean like in the flesh and it's evolved with the pandemic around. Like we get real. This is
in real life.
Even when we're on zoom,[00:59:00]
very real
contact.
Troy: Yeah,
the realest zoom call
you'll ever be on.
brian: right. Maybe that's our bumper sticker.
Troy: There you go.
Yeah.
Shawn Buttner: Yeah,
brian: We, also have a group that is
have a group that is, led by Tom
Kim, our friend
and associate and colleague. And that's a group, a process group for,East Asian men, East Asian American
men.
that's the group that Troy and I do not lead.
Shawn Buttner: Right on.
brian: awesome.
Oh, and one other thing is that we also have a daytime
group open to everyone in the country.
we practice primarily in California,
there's a daytime group that's a men's group. It's not a, it's not a therapy group, and,
but
and therefore it's open to the world. takes place 2.
30, Pacific
time,
on Thursdays.
Shawn Buttner: [01:00:00] Awesome. good folks, if you are looking for a little bit of help in your life, definitely check out these two fine gentlemen. it's been an honor having you guys on. Thank you for being so open and honest.
and thank you for the good work that you're doing out in the world. I know it's making a difference and I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation.
I'll have to go back through my notes to process it more as, a little bit more focused. But, yeah, you guys are great. I hope you guys will come back sometime. we'll have
talk with
you more, in a future episode of the Meaningful Revolution. but thank you guys for being on.
Troy: Yeah,
thank you, Shawn Yeah, I appreciate
the work that you're doing here and getting,getting voices out there and just, helping people to connect with these kinds of resources so that people know where to go.
Shawn Buttner: All right, with that, folks, we'll see you in the next episode of the Meaningful Revolution Podcast. Take care, guys.
​
